House Morcane

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

The jaluk was disrespectful to De'Lara... insolent attitude including very late to bow and glaring at her. The matter was reported to the Ulathataller and Yathin Vilmiathien. They dispensed the punishment to the jaluk. De'Lara did not witness any of it. Who was with De'Lara during this encounter? [Xi'Shae was there with De'Lara.]

Today, with V'ir and Saya listening, the Mori Ilharess comes on. Apparently she wants to RP so De'Lara asks how the jaluk Lomir is doing. Alive and well is the answer. She tries to RP about him not feeling pain but I state that I do not RP based on metagaming. Several players at the disciplining had stated earlier that this was real bad RP and metagaming. She tries to claim it is not metagaming.

So, we break into OOC discussion. I am accused of blowing the problem out of proportion. Some comment about the jaluk being a masochist and RPing this condition for a long time. Some comment about Morcanes making comments about killing the jaluk; comments that were apparently supposed to be party chat that were said in front of the jaluk. She makes some comment about her being here longer than me. She says something about she considers the problem is over.

If the guy is a masochist he still will feel pain... he would not rip out his own tongue. She tries to tell me something about he does not even feel pain. Yes, more comment on that later.

As to blowing the problem out of proportion, De'Lara merely reported the problem. The Ulathtallar and Yathrin dispensed the punishment.

I have no idea what these comments are that were supposed to be party chat; I was there and she was not. We may have made comments about beating or killing him for his lack of respect but we took no action. Plus, it was obvious no beating would have any effect on him... see below.

What does the length of time either of us has been here have to do with anything? In reality, the Mori Ilharess is rarely here... almost totally out of touch. Furthermore, I was here during the beta. Like this is some sort of rank or credibility?

Oh yes, and before this meeting, I considered the matter over.

The Real Problem:

Several characters have "I can not die" or "I do not feel pain" as part of the character design. When these characters encounter some problem where they are to be disciplined, they simply do not respond properly to the discipline. The reaction does not sit well with the one administering the discipline. Soon, the disciplinary methods are escalated, many times to deadly force or exile for even small transgressions. Why you may ask... because punishment has no consequences for these characters. But, punishment must have consequences or the RP is made into a joke. Players should not have these concepts in character design if they do not want to suffer the consequences of the design and their actions.

Invariably, the character feels wronged since he is RPing the char according to his design. Some take his side while others take the other side; a huge argument ensues. Over what... over some quirk or feature the guy incorporated into the design of his character for sake of RP that just does not play out so well for him when he is taken to task for it.
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De'Lara, Ilharess of House Morcane

Of_Memory_and_Sorrow · Xi'Shae Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Posts: 215

Xi'Shae was with De'Lara when encountering the insolent jaluk. She was not there for the punishment.
Like you said, I wouldnt worry about it.

quizzt · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject:

Like you said, I was with you when you had the discussion. I found it pointless of her and it takes away her credibillity for me.

Next time I should get her.....if you order so Laughing

Oh and if someone of another house reads this, "it was a joke"

Dlareh · Ceil, Rad Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 854

Rizzen Morcane · Rizzen, Koll, Hell'ga Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 298

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:49 am Post subject:

Don't spend your time to RP with these guys. It's always a mess...

YaBasta · Radra Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 113

We could take their homestones and lock them in the Morcane dungeon. Very Happy

Dlareh · Ceil, Rad Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 854

There's a thread about Lomir here: http://morihyanda.ath.cx/board/index.php/topic,614.0.html
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I know not with what devices D&D 5E will be played, but D&D 6E will be played with papers and pencils.

Nasia · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject:

Szun · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject:

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

This is not the first time, people avoid troubles just because they are Mories.

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

YaBasta · Radra Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 113

I read the thread. I think that to play a male that is a masochist... he would not disrespect the matriarchy. He would approve of the system because it puts him in his place. I can see where he would ask to be beaten as a reward though.

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject:

I replied to their post. I have been direct and aggressive, but also real.

They may wish to close their eyes and ignore it, but in this case I can't help them.

Mr_Otyugh · DM Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 17

Well I just had to register for this one threaddy thing... things we need to know.

1) Is Lomir... (this is main part...)
a) Happy?
If he's happy, there is no problem.
b) Unhappy?
If he's unhappy, we need to come to a solution that fits for all parts no? Which contains 'all parts'... well you, me, guy next to me and everyone else. Solution that fits to all... that would be where everyone might need to change a bit to NOT ruin enjoyment of any counter parts.

2) Are EACH player part of this happy or at least NOT unhappy?

3) In cases where you are unsure if you're ruining someones fun or not - Ask them if they're alright with your choice... only DMs have power to force someone. (does not mean they will)

I've read both Mori'hyanda AND Morcane forums about this and personally I still am not sure what's the big deal about this.

Everyone remember rule number one of server?
"Have fun and don't interfere on enjoyment of others"... see # 2.

Am I yet another "Ah'll favors da Mori'hyanda" DM? Naw.

YaBasta · Radra Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 113

After reading both threads and reflecting on all the comments (including the thoughtful dm comments), I have come to some conclusions:

1) Even though a masochist wants to suffer, it would not make sense for him to act up to get beaten. I t should serve as a motivator for him - and his house should have treated it as a reward. His unusual proclivity also would probably be an object of amused casual conversations among the nobles. The only reason he would act up as a masochist in order to get beaten is if he were ashamed of his fetish and wanted to hide it. Since drow are not prone to be bashful, it is highly unlikely that the make would have made any attempt to hide his tendencies.

2) Maximus(among others) was called to task for consistently acting in a way that would get him killed. Lomir should be subject to the same limitation. To allow one player to incorporate design elements that would potentially get the character killed repeatedly and not others does not seem proper.

These are just my thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

I think the difference is, I complained to a DM who was inclined to do something about Maximus. I had IC and OOC complaints but pushed the IC complaint. Maximus had no one to back him up.

Lomir, on the other hand, even though there are IC and OOC complaints against his actions; he has plenty of backing by players and DMs. A DM did not resolve the problem, a character did but the solution was said to punish a player so I guess that invalidates or lessens the punishment. I guess I do not know what is the real end result. So possibly, this mess will just flow through the RP.
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De'Lara, Ilharess of House Morcane

Mr_Otyugh · DM Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 17

What I think to be problem is that people have already made up their minds without really making sure about some basic facts... which would be 'Is Lomir happy about this'... I can understand that people try to defend someone if they suddenly stop feeling happy, but I have seen no statement from that players side that he'd be unhappy.

Which returns to me to the point... I'm not sure what's the big deal. Razz

If nothing else works I'd suggest finding compromise... less strict, but more meaningful punishment... 1 week servitude as slave?

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject:

Mr_Otyugh, it is not about Lomir. The event is minor for me.

It is about the discremenations, which have become an unquestionable status quo in Szith.

To be honest, I like Lomir. I like him a lot, I have been leveling with him for a long time. Shit happens, and happens to all of us. Everyone of us may have a bad day.

Morcanes have been too many times, the easy targets is the past. A bad day was never an excuse for a non-Mori. I would like though, equal chances for all.

Mr_Otyugh · DM Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 17

Well as this is no problem, it's single matter fixed on that side I guesses... then there is time to move on to next matter to fix it as well Wink

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject:

To be honest with you mate, I really don't like to have to spend my time whining on forums about things.

When though the magnitude of injustice is such to make people who play Drow suffer OOC, then something needs to change. But things won't change if nobody ever says anything.

I am also quite depressed, this forum is full of people who love to RP and do it very well. I have never seen a so called "Drow DM", willing to organise a single event for us. There are so many things, one could say here. The list could just go on...

Thanks,
Mysh

Dlareh · Ceil, Rad Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 854

Ilsensine and Gargoyle have both been plenty helpful; I guess you just haven't been around enough.
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I know not with what devices D&D 5E will be played, but D&D 6E will be played with papers and pencils.

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject:

I have to play on an Ils event for over five months.

Dlareh · Ceil, Rad Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 854

Well... I was at one a couple days ago, Futo was there too.
_________________
I know not with what devices D&D 5E will be played, but D&D 6E will be played with papers and pencils.

Shyntree · DM Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Posts: 4

I feel I need to chip in here.

Mysh - you need to stop assuming that because DMs arent running events for you, of for House Morcane - that they are instead running them for Mori'hyanda. This is wrong.

Myself: I am so busy in real-life and also with playing my own characters, that I am barely on as a DM - and when I am, I am dealing with players' problems and not running events.

Ilsensine has been suffering huge problems with his ISP and unable to play and run events for the most part. Myself - I have not been in one of his events for 4-5 months either, as a player. EVERYONE is in the same boat, Mysh.

What you need to understand is that given that almost all DMs are volunteers on TFR and are players first, DMs second - there is ALWAYS going to be a shortage of DM run events. The vast majority of events on TFR are player-started and player-run and involve no DMs at all.

ALL players are in the same boat. Please, do not assume that because you have not been involved in any large DM events, that somehow this must be because Mori'hyanda, or other factions, get more DM attention - it's not the case.

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

PM sent to DM Ilsensine...

I saw your post on the Mori site,

(((This banishment is not part of any RP line, it's an OOC punishment for a player that was according to the ppl around him didn't RPed the situation properly. If it was part of a plot line (and I mostly know about this) and the other player (Lomir) was ok with this I don't have a problem, but because this was part of a "this is what happened when you RP bad" then I am not ok with this, YOU DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO PUNISH PLAYERS!

In that situatin I was expecting you to go for an OOC talk and see what kind of punishment you can give Lomir that will not affect the player and make him search for an other house. banishment will only happen as a DM punishment or if the player agree and it's part of some RP line, in that case it could have been any new player that decided to play a drow, you WON'T banish players at will because any IC rank. )))

Hey, I can agree with that. I posted on Morcane site and the upshot is this is an RP opportunity for the Moris. Turn a negative into a positive!

(((Here is a statement by Weylyn, "It's been decided that this matter is going to be resolved with a public beating when Lomir chooses to return. Lomir will probably enjoy it, so that will piss off De'Lara Morcane, which is also a good thing." What makes this one think that the end result will somehow be better? Anyone watching will likely think that discipline is a joke; that Mori's have no idea how to discipline a jaluk; that the Mori's have no control over their jalukul. The ones administering the beating will be made out to look like fools by Lomir's antics. Hence, Mori's will look like fools. Hey, I do not care how this is resolved; just that the RP should somehow be justified. The pressure is on Moris to handle this properly or just slop through the RP and ignore the consequences.)))

What I am trying to say here is the Mori�s have an RP opportunity, a real challenge. The goal should not be about pissing someone off; which I believe may backfire on them, leaving all of Szith laughing at them. The goal should be to rise to the occasion with ingenuity to arrive at some way to discipline the jaluk. Hint: something other than raw physical pain. This RP obstacle is set before them to come up with a plan to discipline the jaluk and not make them look like fools. Afterall, Lolth may not be too impressed by a lackluster performance.
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De'Lara, Ilharess of House Morcane

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:15 am Post subject:

Everyone is NOT on the same boat Shyntree, and you are partially responsible.

Mr_Otyugh · DM Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 17

I'm not going to poke my fingers on the angry bee nest who have same honey, but assumes others to have better honey Razz

... but I'll give my point of views anyway...

To fully understand this problem and not taking sides, you'd first have to be playing on both sides no?... or at neither side... well I'm playing at neither side Razz

And Felnak, you're right that it shouldn't be you to take initiative to fix things that doesn't really belong to your character, mainly I'm trying to point out that there is ALWAYS another way. There might be worse way and better way, but there is NEVER only one way to handle things. (not saying you said that or anything.. just pointing out)

And with 'Lomir' I mainly meant the player, not the character... males shouldn't feel too happy IC about their positions in general... after all, they're the "worse half" of the city.

You being unhappy is relevant anyhow, if you're not uphappy then that's achievement alone Wink

Well if there comes public beating to Lomir and they manage to make fool of themselves as they can't keep discipline then I believe that's something you can use against House Mori'hyanda if there is to come one... can mock them of it and such Wink

let it be Mori'hyandas error IC and use it against them... if Mori'hyanda handles things bad then Lolth might not be pleased, if Lolth is not pleased then they need to come up to something else Razz

Shyntree · DM Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Posts: 4

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject:

Shyntree, if you feel you have done your job, and there has been no injsutice or any abuse of your powers, I am happy with it.

For Lomir, you guys decide what will happen. I don't want though Lomir to pay for all past wrongs. This would be equally unfair.

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

Right, Lomir must be treated fairly.

The way I see it, I am in a no-lose situation so I am satisfied with the outcome provided the outcome is RP'd properly. If the Mori's successfully discipline Lomir, then De'Lara is satisfied. If the Mori's unsuccessfully discipline Lomir, then many others including De'Lara are laughing at them; De'Lara is still satisfied. Also, if my character is satisfied, then I will be. As for OOC, we know the difference between right and wrong; that being justification enough. Smile

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De'Lara, Ilharess of House Morcane

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

DM Ilsensine has resolved this issue.

Lomir accepted banishment from Szith. The resolution is proper considering the actions of his house. The infraction was not severe; but the actions of his house were not appropriate; in line with RP.

From an OOC point of view, Weylyn had said that people were overreacting; when actually his house was in control and did not react timely and properly, despite prodding by others. However, had they reacted timely and properly, Lomir need not have been banished. Perhaps some OOC reluctance to RP was part of the cause or some OOC tendency to fight and resist, causing frustration for others, rather than RP. Take for example the previously mentioned quote by Weylyn, "It's been decided that this matter is going to be resolved with a public beating when Lomir chooses to return. Lomir will probably enjoy it, so that will piss off De'Lara Morcane, which is also a good thing." Clearly, no effort was being made to RP, with no concern as to the result of said RP. This, I believe was the issue and not Lomir; Lomir paid the price.

From an IC point of view, Lomir�s house was in the position to punish him; they knew of his condition and his antics. They chose a mode of punishment that would not yield the desired results; they let him down; they failed him. In an odd way, Lomir is the victim. Lomir accepted banishment to resolve the issue. Had his house reacted quickly and properly, Lomir would have been timely and satisfactorily punished; not ever being in the position to accept banishment. In the future his house must perform better if they are in the same position to punish him.

When Lomir returns to Szith, the debt is paid. I see Lomir only as the cause of a minor issue, that was not addressed timely and properly through RP, allowing the minor issue to balloon into something huge. There are consequences to character actions; this time more severe than needed but still appropriate considering actions of all parties. I urge that we interact and RP with Lomir when he returns to Szith.
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De'Lara, Ilharess of House Morcane

PrinceMyshkin · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject:

All solved then. Smile

I believe you about the rest Felnak, but there is nothing we can do.

Felnak · De'Lara Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 250 Location: USA

The best we can do is quickly identify this manner of behavior in the future... it is what separates the RP'ers from the pretenders; as that becomes more evident over time, it will tend to resolve itself. Smile

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De'Lara, Ilharess of House Morcane

Of_Memory_and_Sorrow · Xi'Shae Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Posts: 215

Good...now may you all go back to annoying the surfacers!

Xilow · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject:

*Nawen puts on her stealth gear and heads for the surface. . .* Twisted Evil